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Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 15 Mar 2016 22:09
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I have a simple question to ask here. Should owners and trainers have the right to decide what is in the best interests of their greyhounds, right up to start time of a race. Should we be allowed to scratch our dogs (Late) when we can see the risk of injury happening, as we train our dogs and have intimate knowledge of their previous injury history, should it be our right to do this or should we just say nothing and watch our greyhounds get hurt.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 15 Mar 2016 22:18
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Gary Smith wrote:
I have a simple question to ask here. Should owners and trainers have the right to decide what is in the best interests of their greyhounds, right up to start time of a race. Should we be allowed to scratch our dogs (Late) when we can see the risk of injury happening, as we train our dogs and have intimate knowledge of their previous injury history, should it be our right to do this or should we just say nothing and watch our greyhounds get hurt.
. Gary, . You have a few simple questions in your post. . How can you always see the risk of injury happening ? Why did you nominate in the first place or why didn't you scratch earlier ? . What did you see and when did you see it ??
Grant Dunphy Australia (Verified User) Posts 743 Dogs 4 / Races 1 15 Mar 2016 22:43
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I hear what your saying Gary. You could envisage your dog getting hammered into other dogs or the rail in the first 50 metres due to the habits of yours & dogs boxed near yours at box rise & you do have the right to scratch prior to 8am on the morning of the race. You mention LATE scratching though & I can't see why you would need to leave it till then. What I would like to see is the 10 day scratching penalty reduced to 7 days & the penalty to commence from the day of the scratching notification as it used to be. We could have rules to assist the trainers in their work not penalise them & this would definitely be one in my opinion.
Steve Bennie Australia (Verified User) Posts 697 Dogs 11 / Races 2 15 Mar 2016 22:44
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Gary when you race at the gardens 400 or 500 or maitland 400 you just hope your dog can walk to the car after. They are not good dog tracks. They do a lot of talking at the top of GRNSW but they don't say much.
Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 15 Mar 2016 23:01
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Its a simple question Mark as owners and trainers who spend everyday with our greyhounds and have intimate knowledge of previous injury history and you saw something that would definitely cause your greyhound to sustain an injury whilst racing, should we have the right under welfare to scratch a dog for that reason and should it be acceptable to the steward in charge of the meeting or instead of telling the truth why do we have to lie and say sorry my dog is urinating black so must be dehydrated please scratch him or bring him out at race time and pinch a muscle and make him squeal so the vet comes over and scratches him for injury all of which are accepted with nothing more than a 10 day penalty. In my case I told the truth as to why I wanted to scratch and was suspended and now have been fined, all without presenting my witnesses or evidence. No one wants to talk or recognize the rule associated with this issue as we could end up like the thoroughbred trainers and scratch with no penalty before race time if a track turned from a good 3 to a heavy 8 and feared the risk of injury was too great to compete. This issue of mine is in all areas of parliament state and federal and Greyhounds Australasia and yet the are all silent hoping I will go away, I will not accept what has happened to me and will fight this injustice all the way until Welfare concerns by an owner and trainer are recognized in the rules as an acceptable reason for scratching.
Welfare has been the biggest issue for over the last two years and yet the first trainer who stands up and puts his dog's welfare before prizemoney is suspended and fined.
This has nothing to do with nominating at a track and why, and has nothing to do with scratching earlier as how do you know what awaits you at the track nominated for when you live hours away, as a participant all tracks have a Duty of Care to provide safe and suitable amenities for all participants greyhounds to compete on and the rule that compels us to run has to be changed. Yes that's right we are compelled to run our greyhounds even if the steward in charge says everything is fine and you say it's not. last time I looked neither the steward or vet were at my place fixing and maintaining the injuries of my dogs.
Nathan Absalom United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 128 Dogs 0 / Races 0 15 Mar 2016 23:17
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Gary, I think you are completely in the right and would argue that the Code of Practice for the keeping of greyhounds in training allows you to do just that with this clause:
"The overriding theme of this Code is that the well being of the greyhound must at all times be considered above the demands of owners, breeders, trainers, sponsors, wagering operators,punters and spectators."
Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 15 Mar 2016 23:42
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nathan absalom wrote:
Gary, I think you are completely in the right and would argue that the Code of Practice for the keeping of greyhounds in training allows you to do just that with this clause:
"The overriding theme of this Code is that the well being of the greyhound must at all times be considered above the demands of owners, breeders, trainers, sponsors, wagering operators,punters and spectators."
I agree Nathan under this policy maybe there is an area within it but like everything that has happened to participants with Welfare this policy is designed to punish us with regard to how we keep them. We have no rights when it comes to standing up at a race track when we fear the risk of an injury under the current Welfare rules or racing rules, yet in other codes it is common practice for owners and trainers to have this right. An amendment or change in the rules needs to happen for us as participants to be able to speak up without fear of persecution. We as an Industry need this to happen and maybe some of the lazy people associated with tracks will pick their game up if people started scratching because of the risk of injury, All participants deserve a fair go and the right to protect their own animals.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 15 Mar 2016 23:43
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I can't see how the changing of the rules is going to solve the problems when the problems lay in the track itself the Maitland 400m boxes are set too far off the rail to cater for the dogs coming from the 450m and the 565m by having the boxes at the 400m start on a moveable hoist will still not eradicate the Velodrome and funnelling effect the dogs get when racing into the turn with this being a sand track the movement of the sand under their feet becomes another problem then on top of that we have the sand itself getting thrown up by the dogs up front of the bunch and what effect this has on the dogs eyes while racing not only that do the dogs close their eyes under these types of racing conditions we move to the Gardens well 400m bend starts is just ridiculous unless the radius is very much bigger than 50m not only that if your dog can't run around the 11 sec mark then 9 times out of ten it will be in traffic which is a very risky area to be in the 500m start early section again applies with a 4.95 or 5 second section the order of the day at anytime one races there otherwise traffic becomes a big problem leading out of the straight I know some dogs win a race or 2 from coming from behind but not many maybe they should do stats on just when and where these injuries especially the severe one happen whether it's the 1st 3 or 4 or the second half of the field so for mine we all contribute to the Injury toll by racing over unsuitable distances with the wrong type of dog but the GRNSW create a bigger problem by not doing enough about the way these distaces have been set up and let's not forget that trainers may be doing the training bit a little over the top when it comes to the dogs conditioning.Now the rules why touch them the simple fact of the matter is your dog should be injury free when the noms are entered by the trainers you have up until closing time of nominations which normally is 9am on any given day to scratch that dog without penalty after closing after the dog has been drawn to race then the Rules of Racing apply I have scratched many times because the dog was sore without penalty because if it is sore in the shoulder Monday well nothing will have the injury right Thursday.Many problems have been caused and are being caused by the participant yes us people especially with these injury tolls that dogs are getting by racing on these under Engineered and managed Racetracks I don't think anyone has realised yet that a dogs 4 legs when standing are the same length once we had 5 beautiful flat tracks in Beaumont Park Cessnock Singleton and Wyong they are all gone and what we have left in their place is The Gardens and a Refurbished Maitland ...and that my friends is why I hope Cessnock becomes the Circuit Of Excellence for Greyhound Racing in this area the Hunter
Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 15 Mar 2016 23:54
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John McAlister wrote:
I can't see how the changing of the rules is going to solve the problems when the problems lay in the track itself the Maitland 400m boxes are set too far off the rail to cater for the dogs coming from the 450m and the 565m by having the boxes at the 400m start on a moveable hoist will still not eradicate the Velodrome and funnelling effect the dogs get when racing into the turn with this being a sand track the movement of the sand under their feet becomes another problem then on top of that we have the sand itself getting thrown up by the dogs up front of the bunch and what effect this has on the dogs eyes while racing not only that do the dogs close their eyes under these types of racing conditions we move to the Gardens well 400m bend starts is just ridiculous unless the radius is very much bigger than 50m not only that if your dog can't run around the 11 sec mark then 9 times out of ten it will be in traffic which is a very risky area to be in the 500m start early section again applies with a 4.95 or 5 second section the order of the day at anytime one races there otherwise traffic becomes a big problem leading out of the straight I know some dogs win a race or 2 from coming from behind but not many maybe they should do stats on just when and where these injuries especially the severe one happen whether it's the 1st 3 or 4 or the second half of the field so for mine we all contribute to the Injury toll by racing over unsuitable distances with the wrong type of dog but the GRNSW create a bigger problem by not doing enough about the way these distaces have been set up and let's not forget that trainers may be doing the training bit a little over the top when it comes to the dogs conditioning.Now the rules why touch them the simple fact of the matter is your dog should be injury free when the noms are entered by the trainers you have up until closing time of nominations which normally is 9am on any given day to scratch that dog without penalty after closing after the dog has been drawn to race then the Rules of Racing apply I have scratched many times because the dog was sore without penalty because if it is sore in the shoulder Monday well nothing will have the injury right Thursday.Many problems have been caused and are being caused by the participant yes us people especially with these injury tolls that dogs are getting by racing on these under Engineered and managed Racetracks I don't think anyone has realised yet that a dogs 4 legs when standing are the same length once we had 5 beautiful flat tracks in Beaumont Park Cessnock Singleton and Wyong they are all gone and what we have left in their place is The Gardens and a Refurbished Maitland ...and that my friends is why I hope Cessnock becomes the Circuit Of Excellence for Greyhound Racing in this area the Hunter
John sorry to say you have completely missed my point, If you have troubles with things at certain tracks complain and don't enter thats your right, but if turn up on the night or day at a venue and things as proven to be sub standard and the risk of injury is higher than acceptable then you should have a right to scratch at anytime.
I do not and believe anyone would late scratch at a meeting because they drew badly or were outgraded if we had this right, because if those things were unsuitable for owners and trainers when the box draw came out, they would easily take the 10 day penalty without question and wait for another day. This reasoning was put to me as to why we do not have the right to scratch and are compelled to compete, I for one will scratch again under the same circumstances if warranted and have already said I will. Participants are never going to turn up and waste their time and money to be a late scratching anywhere as stated if unhappy with a box draw they will do it early and the reserves get a go. Protection of my greyhounds welfare is paramount in my kennels and my owners will testify to that.
Jim Absalom Australia (Verified User) Posts 121 Dogs 17 / Races 12 16 Mar 2016 01:54
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Some years back at Warragul a heavy fog descended onto the track, you could not see a thing further than 10 meters in front of you. Alf Baker put a torch on the lure arm and operated the lure from the middle of the track. After watching the race prior to mine and seeing the dogs come in at long intervals, I requested to stewards to scratch. Request denied. I pointed to sign on notice board which is displayed at every track which reads ( Dogs raced at Owners risk) To that point I was allowed to scratch. In that race of the seven that raced only five finished the race, after which the meeting was abandon. So at times there is a point where a trainer should be allowed to scratch without penalty and common sense prevail.
Charles W Mizzi Australia (Verified User) Posts 684 Dogs 1 / Races 1 16 Mar 2016 05:09
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Gary Smith wrote:
I have a simple question to ask here. Should owners and trainers have the right to decide what is in the best interests of their greyhounds, right up to start time of a race. Should we be allowed to scratch our dogs (Late) when we can see the risk of injury happening, as we train our dogs and have intimate knowledge of their previous injury history, should it be our right to do this or should we just say nothing and watch our greyhounds get hurt.
. Gary, . You have a few simple questions in your post. . How can you always see the risk of injury happening ? Why did you nominate in the first place or why didn't you scratch earlier ? . What did you see and when did you see it ??
Mark I will answer you.
How can you see....... when in previous races on the track dogs were smashing hocks because of a hard track (later found because the club could not get water in)
2nd question irrelevant.
What did you see..........dogs put down because of smashed hocks.
This happened! My mate went to the stewards wanting to scratch his dogs, he was denied by the stewards, he refused to prepare the dogs and they were scratched. He was charged, their was an inquiry and he was fined. This happened in 2014, pre live baiting. If it happened today it would be an outrage and the powers would not go there. The dogs would be scratched.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 16 Mar 2016 05:18
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Are you referring to Gary's incident ?
Charles W Mizzi Australia (Verified User) Posts 684 Dogs 1 / Races 1 16 Mar 2016 05:49
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No, this happened in Victoria. Would not happen today.
Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 16 Mar 2016 05:56
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charles w mizzi wrote:
Mark Donohue wrote:
Gary Smith wrote:
I have a simple question to ask here. Should owners and trainers have the right to decide what is in the best interests of their greyhounds, right up to start time of a race. Should we be allowed to scratch our dogs (Late) when we can see the risk of injury happening, as we train our dogs and have intimate knowledge of their previous injury history, should it be our right to do this or should we just say nothing and watch our greyhounds get hurt.
. Gary, . You have a few simple questions in your post. . How can you always see the risk of injury happening ? Why did you nominate in the first place or why didn't you scratch earlier ? . What did you see and when did you see it ??
Mark I will answer you.
How can you see....... when in previous races on the track dogs were smashing hocks because of a hard track (later found because the club could not get water in)
2nd question irrelevant.
What did you see..........dogs put down because of smashed hocks.
This happened! My mate went to the stewards wanting to scratch his dogs, he was denied by the stewards, he refused to prepare the dogs and they were scratched. He was charged, their was an inquiry and he was fined. This happened in 2014, pre live baiting. If it happened today it would be an outrage and the powers would not go there. The dogs would be scratched.
Charlie this has happened to me in the last month and after all the animal Welfare we have had thrown at us it is a disgrace and I will not accept the fine or suspension because I put the welfare of my racing dog before the prizemoney. This has to change and authorities need to give us the power to scratch under welfare as the reason and be accepted by the stewards.
Tom Astbury Australia (Verified User) Posts 442 Dogs 0 / Races 0 16 Mar 2016 08:07
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Here are some Welfare code ideas to insist on and ensure equality of welfare at the track:
1.3. The basic needs of greyhounds are: Readily accessible food and water in sufficient quantities to maintain health and vigour; Freedom of movement to stand, stretch and lie down;
Racing Kennel Minimum size = 3 sq.m (e.g 2m x 1.5m) A kennel enclosure for housing a single greyhound in race training, generally situated within a secure building and designed to encourage the greyhound to rest. The minimum width of a kennel for an adult greyhound shall be no less than 1.2 metres.
As for "...Should we be allowed to scratch our dogs (Late) when we can see the risk of injury happening", that is not reasonable, well perhaps on a cracker nite on the harbour.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 16 Mar 2016 18:04
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Gary, What were the reasons for scratching ? What did your senses determine and when did you decide to scratch ? . I have no problem with you believing it was a welfare issue, but please explain, if you can, your reasons.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 16 Mar 2016 18:32
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and ask what box track and distance and the reason ....they have changed the rules to the point where a Vet is sent out to the trainers place to check the dog over to see if what they have scratched for is true
Luke Miller Australia (Verified User) Posts 794 Dogs 56 / Races 17 16 Mar 2016 19:54
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Hi Gary this has opened a big can of worms currently over in NZ. North Island leading trainer Steve Clark scratched 11 of his race dogs over concerns for their safety due to poor track conditions EXTERNAL LINK
Gary Smith Australia (Verified User) Posts 3320 Dogs 6 / Races 14 18 Mar 2016 04:58
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Gary, What were the reasons for scratching ? What did your senses determine and when did you decide to scratch ? . I have no problem with you believing it was a welfare issue, but please explain, if you can, your reasons.
OK here it is and it is going to appeal, I raced on a TAB C Track in NSW, I raced in the heats of a race the week before and track was acceptable, my dog ran second in Best on Night and qualified for the final a week later, He drew well in the final as was an early favorite for the $1200 to the winner final. I arrived at track with a dog as well presented as I could do with my family expecting to win or at worst finish 1 2 3. I kenneled my dog all was well and a friend of mine asked me to handled a dog of his in race 2 which I did, when we went out for the race I could not believe what I was seeing or walking on as I could not scratch the surface of the track with my finger (Too Hard), the trainer who I was helping was witness to this and was just as disgusted as myself, after the race I went to steward in charge and told him I feared for the welfare and high risk of injury to my dog a dog I spend 24 hours a day around and have intimate knowledge of his injury history and why he runs in 4 tapes 4 inch on both wrists and 2 inch on both hocks and wanted to scratch as I was sure the medical bill the next day would be more than the $1200 in prizemoney on the night, or his complete career could have been over. Steward told me to go away. Myself and my friend watched the next race over the distance my dog was going to start over and we watched the number 8 dog hit the fence going around the first bend, when up in the lead and did not receive any interference from other dogs, this just confirmed to me to stay strong and scratch my dog. A long story short I have experience in building a track and maintaining a track, but the question must be asked why do we not have the right to protect our dogs and are compelled to race them, when we have to pay the bills. A video link was done after the last race and I was suspended straight away as was the dog, I have now been fined which I will not accept either, yet you have read nothing about this, but trust me you will. The welfare of my greyhounds is paramount to me at all times and my owners know this, I believe this to be the case with everyone who owns or trains a greyhound. Tom Astbury I would expect better from you as a Vet .
Looks like I am not the only bloke with concerns !
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