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Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 09 Apr 2016 01:03
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Johnathon campbell wrote:
Is that right Martin. How's his Australian stats? A lot of good sires in Ireland that weren't any good in Australia as for American sires like Kelso Fussiler. If you think american stats can be used for australian breeding industry then you knowledge is very limited.
Stats?! He has fewer than 60 AUS pups listed on GD. That's hardly enough to form any reasonable opinion.
Is that right Martin. How's his Australian stats? A lot of good sires in Ireland that weren't any good in Australia as for American sires like Kelso Fussiler. If you think american stats can be used for australian breeding industry then you knowledge is very limited.
Stats?! He has fewer than 60 AUS pups listed on GD. That's hardly enough to form any reasonable opinion.
On the racetrack, Kelsos Fusileer was stakes class but not a stakes winner. I asked a good friend, based in Boston, who has been in greyhound racing all his life for his thoughts on Kelsos Fusileer. His exact reply is: "Kelsos Fusileer won 10 AA's at Wheeling Downs when he ran there back in 2005-06. At one stage he rattled off three in a row which by any standard is a good thing. Wheeling Downs is a noted speed track and he did come from behind to win most of his races. "He was a good racer at Wheeling Downs but was he as good as Rhythmless and Greys Calibrator who also ran there I don't think so. "As a stud dog he has produced some solid dogs over here but nothing outstanding. He wasn't a dog the breeders were rushing to breed to. My honest opinion of him was he was a good dog but not a great one. "Now on the other hand you see what he produced in Fernando Bale, a dog better than himself, when mixed up with your Australian blood." So there you have it. My own research on Kelsos Fusileer shows Fernando Bale is a standout, by a long, long way, in his stud career. So, Kelsos Fusileer was a top grade dog but not a star. At stud he has been handy at best (until Fernando). His lines have a smattering a good and some very good, but lots of moderate. So to Fernando's damline. Dam, Chloe Allen (Primo Uno-Rosemary Bale) is from a great Wheeler family. Chloe Allen was second in the SA Oaks and a multiple city winner. Her first two litters, to Dyna Lachlan and Cosmic Chief, are moderate and that's giving them a very big wrap. But to Kelsos Fusileer she has also produced Group winner Elfen Bale. Chloe Allen carries two very important Irish crosses in her pedigree, that of Moral Standards and Silver Ball and I have already written of the link to Kelsos Fusileer's dam Lassinagh Silky with that pair. Chloe Allen is a half sister to champion stayer Jarvis Bale who didn't get an early go at stud with the exception of Paul Wheeler's own bitches.
Howard Moshinsky USA (Verified User) Posts 886 Dogs 3 / Races 0 09 Apr 2016 02:56
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YOU GUYS ARE SO OFF BASE WITH YOUR NEGATIVE STATEMENTS RE KF YOU DONT REALIZE HE IS A MAJOR FORCE IN AMERICAN BREEDING
LAST YEAR IN THE USA IN IOWA HE HAD 5 OR 6 PUPS IN ONE TOP GRADE RACE- IF THERE ARE ANY FROZEN STRAWS LEFT THEY WILL FLY OF THE SHELF
WHAT DID CHLOE ALLEN PRODUCE IN THE WHERES PEDRO LITTER-
WHEN YOU PRODUCE YES SIRE THE BEST AUSTRALIAN RACING HAS SEEN IN MANY
YEARS HARDLY THINK THE WORD MODERATE FITS JOHN KELLYS
KELSO FUSULEER FERNANDO BALE WAS THE 8TH WONDER OF THE WORLD
can I ask you both a question that I honestly don't know the answer too please. Who's the better sire and who would people want to use firstly' Kiowa sweet trey or Kelso Fusiler ?
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 09 Apr 2016 04:38
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I did read a post on here that said KST was a major disappointment considering the huge number of pups he sired in the USA.
Jim Meletios Australia (Verified User) Posts 592 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Apr 2016 05:05
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Wade Gallagher wrote:
Johnathon campbell wrote:
phil hall wrote:
guess he should have won 2 million
Wouldn't change my above comments. Great race dog. His sire wasn't terribly good at stud. Those things cannot change even if he had won 10 million unfortunately.
I'm not old enough to know for sure but on the face of it you could say that the sire of Temlee & the sire of Brother Fox were only average sires without the champions just mentioned & they went on to be legendary sires. I stand to be corrected though.
Time will tell with Fernando Bale.
Wade re Temlee and Bro Fox sires you have hit the nail on the head. Time will tell but I reckon he ,because of his ability,will have to throw some very handy ones at least.
I did read a post on here that said KST was a major disappointment considering the huge number of pups he sired in the USA.
I believe I've heard the same but I'm nearly sure our American friends would say KST is a better and more respected dog then KF in the big USA. I had a quick look and if I'm reading the sires list in America correctly then Bella Infared is doing a better job with his first crop of pups then KF is doing with his last few crops???
Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 09 Apr 2016 10:07
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Johnathon campbell wrote:
can I ask you both a question that I honestly don't know the answer too please. Who's the better sire and who would people want to use firstly' Kiowa sweet trey or Kelso Fusiler ?
KST had ten times the pups as KF. Quantity has a quality all its own. But most breeders can't breed in quantity. Given a choice between a vial of KST or KF, most American breeders would opt for the latter. This chart tells you everything you need to know:
In other words, you are almost twice as likely to get good pups from Kelsos Fusileer.
Consider this as well; from 15,000 offspring, KST has no sons who are considered top sires. His sire, Oswald Cobblepot, produced only one top-10 sire.
It's too early to say if KF will have a top sire, but my guess is we'll find out soon enough from Fernando Bale. KF's sire Gable Dodge produced two top-2 sires in Dodgem By Design and Lonesome Cry, and Stans Boy Flyer would've been a top-5 sire had he not died at 7. KC And All is poised to become Dodge's third top-2 sire and is on a trajectory to be #1 in a few years.
The truth is that the HB's Commander topline is almost dead and is perpetuated by only a few second-tier sires. The only one getting any breedings at all is Flying Coal City. Dodge and Penske are the dominant sirelines.
Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 09 Apr 2016 10:50
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Mark Staines wrote:
I did read a post on here that said KST was a major disappointment considering the huge number of pups he sired in the USA.
A large number of KST pups were fast but phony or gutless. The ones who got genuineness from their dams tended to be good race dogs. I think he is proving to be a better damsire than he was a sire. His daughters have crossed well with Gable Dodge, Flying Penske and Brett Lee sirelines.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 09 Apr 2016 11:09
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I think Lonesome Cry will be a good broody sire here, he can throw a very fast Dog and a few fighter's also.
Anthony McVicker Australia (Verified User) Posts 1439 Dogs 24 / Races 126 09 Apr 2016 11:12
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BD's Grayson stats also very good for a dog not high profile or well supported, could be wrong
Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 09 Apr 2016 11:16
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I think Australians and the Irish tend to misunderstand how American racing works. Good, solid graders are the backbone of American racing. A kennel will make far more money in a year with a large number of tough, durable, hard-trying dogs than a few fast ones.
American dogs run three times a fortnight and a good grader at a better track will run 60-70 races in a year and grind out $200 or $400 a week and maybe $10K to $20K a year. Multiply that times 50 or 60 dogs in a kennel, and it adds up quickly. That's what Americans breed for.
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 14 Apr 2016 06:12
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if you wanted to use FB what bitch would click with him.
if you wanted to use FB what bitch would click with him.
Which line do people think will click with FB
And is his stud fee $4400
Bitches with Irish bloodlines. Bitches that reinforce the Wheeler damline. Double Head Honcho via Go Wild Teddy And daughters of Collision I'm lead to believe.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 14 Apr 2016 06:47
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darren langley wrote:
if you wanted to use FB what bitch would click with him.
Which line do people think will click with FB
And is his stud fee $4400
Any Bitch with a decent Motor.
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 14 Apr 2016 07:24
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Johnathon campbell wrote:
darren langley wrote:
if you wanted to use FB what bitch would click with him.
Which line do people think will click with FB
And is his stud fee $4400
Bitches with Irish bloodlines. Bitches that reinforce the Wheeler damline. Double Head Honcho via Go Wild Teddy And daughters of Collision I'm lead to believe.
Thanks just wondering people thoughts
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 14 Apr 2016 07:26
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Mark Staines wrote:
darren langley wrote:
if you wanted to use FB what bitch would click with him.
Which line do people think will click with FB
And is his stud fee $4400
Any Bitch with a decent Motor.
Always a good start. Lol lets hope they have a V8
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 19 Apr 2016 09:09
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How are his pups going I know there still pretty young.
Are people happy with his pups that have used him.
Howard Moshinsky USA (Verified User) Posts 886 Dogs 3 / Races 0 19 Apr 2016 11:06
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https://fasttrack.grv.org.au/Dog/Litters/255840010https://fasttrack.grv.org.au/Dog/Litters/25584001 EXTERNAL LINK
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 19 Apr 2016 20:20
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howard moshinsky wrote:
https://fasttrack.grv.org.au/Dog/Litters/255840010https://fasttrack.grv.org.au/Dog/Litters/25584001 EXTERNAL LINK
Thanks Howard. Was more looking at what people's thoughts of his puppies and the character of them. I'm sure there will be a lot of people waiting to see how his first crop break in.
I know a lot of people think he won't make it, I think he will be a star at stud. The only problem the average breeder might not be able to afford him.