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Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 09 Jun 2023 03:09
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In another topic, this point has brought on some spirited and at somewhat borderline abusive argument about what the definition of a PROVEN SIRE is.
Is there an Industry Standard that we should all go by?
Or is it just a term that over the years has been used loosely to service whatever purpose that you want to use it for?
e.g. I remember a stud ad years ago, PRE-FROZEN SEMEN, that such and such a sire was NOW PROVEN. It wasn't about siring a winner, it meant that he was able to actually sire a litter of pups
I would like to get people's views on what constitutes PROVEN in their eyes?
Its not a witch hunt, because the word can mean different things to different people and I am just interested to see what it does mean to the readers here on the Forum
There is no right or wrong answer
But my purpose is to try and get some consensus on what we are talking about when we say something is PROVEN and possibly develop a standard we can all go by when we start talking about certain sires or dams etc
See how we go
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 09 Jun 2023 05:13
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I think it's all just a individual persons opinion and people see what they want to see
Myself being a prime example. Bernardo had 2 litters racing but they contained Dr Tucker, Aussie Secret, gold driller so after 2 litters because I already had one eye on Bernardo I'd seen enough
Yet Flying Ricciardo has had 35 individual winners and 80 odd winners overall but because all our broodies come from Barcia bale lines he's not on my radar and without looking it up I wouldn't have known how good he's started
Another example is Shima shine and Tommy Shelby have started phenomenal and currently are very much on par with each other, but I'd taken a lot more notice of Tommy Shelby barring a couple of Shima shine pups
Probably if they're not super supported a city winner makes them proven, but if they've had every opportunity and a handful of successful broodies they probably need a track record breaker or group winner to be considered proven
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5959 Dogs 8 / Races 0 09 Jun 2023 05:39
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Proven Sire/Dam - What does it mean to you?
Zero, however I do like to see x path being a proven one, meaning the combination top and bottom half of the ped in x worked previously with at least around a handful of quality country or city racers.
Thx for the topic.
Hayden Gilders Australia (Verified User) Posts 993 Dogs 29 / Races 0 09 Jun 2023 06:35
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To me proven means city winning progeny. But it doesnt mean that you can buy pup or semen without further investigation
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 09 Jun 2023 07:16
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
Proven Sire/Dam - What does it mean to you?
Zero, however I do like to see x path being a proven one, meaning the combination top and bottom half of the ped in x worked previously with at least around a handful of quality country or city racers.
Thx for the topic.
Lol well said Ryan ! You make me laugh
We race under 3 grades , city being the pinnacle . When he throws a chaser that wins at this highest grade available ! He has officially thrown at a level of quality that you would only describe as .. proven .
Same for a brood/dam , thats why when advertising pups , its all thats needed to be said
Regardless of flaws in offspring later found or the flows of ups and downs in constant winners or group wins , is irrelevant.
This is all decided over time to each individuals eye .
Ps .If your happy to see a stud throw 50 winners at provincial level over 400 mtr and say he throws winners and is proven , you simply have a different level of personal quality
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5959 Dogs 8 / Races 0 09 Jun 2023 07:58
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I still think you need to make room for types like these https:/ CLICK HERE and what they offer when considering 'proven'.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 09 Jun 2023 08:32
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The majority of the "proven" naysayers here have used that very terminology "proven" in their own advertising. Hypocrisy manifest.
Hayden Gilders Australia (Verified User) Posts 993 Dogs 29 / Races 0 10 Jun 2023 01:39
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Lots of thing relating to breeding are vague at best perhaps intentionally, ie the designation of greyhound stud fertility specialists - what does it mean? what organisation or association bestows it? Do the stud dogs have a higher strike rate? Like proven it sound impressive but could mean f@@k nothing
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1344 Dogs 154 / Races 139 10 Jun 2023 11:29
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If proven really meant something, everyone would be breeding city and Group class greyhounds litter after litter. All proven does, is give you a few more warm and fuzzies, as you watch your pup / litters running around in the paddock.
Mark Wilcox Australia (Verified User) Posts 264 Dogs 1 / Races 0 10 Jun 2023 22:00
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PAUL Zambrora Brockie is a really good choice that looks great on paper hope it works out.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 10 Jun 2023 22:07
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Darren Leeson wrote:
If proven really meant something, everyone would be breeding city and Group class greyhounds litter after litter. All proven does, is give you a few more warm and fuzzies, as you watch your pup / litters running around in the paddock.
That's highly amusing because I seen you say for example. Bekim Bale is a "proven" brood sire who when put to particular sires produces percentages higher than the average. Even when you haven't used the exact term proven, there is the inference.
[Edited Admin]
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1344 Dogs 154 / Races 139 10 Jun 2023 22:24
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Thats more to do with working out why a cross works best - knowing bloodlines. Not just the generic proven BS, that everyone bangs on about.
[Edited Admin]
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Jun 2023 03:35
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Paul Dicks wrote:
The majority of the "proven" naysayers here have used that very terminology "proven" in their own advertising. Hypocrisy manifest.
I can only repeat this comment.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1344 Dogs 154 / Races 139 11 Jun 2023 05:11
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And youd still be wrong again ;)
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Jun 2023 05:26
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I'll give you another example of when a sire is PROVEN. His stud fee goes up, because supply and demand has PROVEN it. He has PROVEN to be a success and he has PROVEN a price rise is justified.
If you don't like the term PROVEN, try shown or demonstrated.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1344 Dogs 154 / Races 139 11 Jun 2023 05:50
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And the point youre missing. Proven guarantees you nothing. At the woeful percentages of every sire. Youre going to need to rely on a lot more than proven to get anywhere.
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 11 Jun 2023 05:53
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Paul Dicks wrote:
I'll give you another example of when a sire is PROVEN. His stud fee goes up, because supply and demand has PROVEN it. He has PROVEN to be a success and he has PROVEN a price rise is justified.
If you don't like the term PROVEN, try shown or demonstrated.
I've seen plenty of sires go up in fee prematurely and studmasters shoot themselves in the foot because the only person that considers them proven is the studmaster, not breeders
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 11 Jun 2023 05:55
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Mark Wilcox wrote:
PAUL Zambrora Brockie is a really good choice that looks great on paper hope it works out.
The only issue with zambora brockie is getting a straw. Rare as hens teeth now
Might be safer/more likely to get a son of zambora brockie
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Jun 2023 06:31
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It would be if there wasn't one sitting in the Freezer waiting for her to come on season.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Jun 2023 06:32
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Matt Griffiths wrote:
Paul Dicks wrote:
I'll give you another example of when a sire is PROVEN. His stud fee goes up, because supply and demand has PROVEN it. He has PROVEN to be a success and he has PROVEN a price rise is justified.
If you don't like the term PROVEN, try shown or demonstrated.
I've seen plenty of sires go up in fee prematurely and studmasters shoot themselves in the foot because the only person that considers them proven is the studmaster, not breeders