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Anthony Jeffress Australia (Verified User) Posts 3669 Dogs 54 / Races 10 10 Nov 2015 02:15
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Nicholas Arena wrote:
Back to the origins of this post.
I am not fully convinced like others the new breeding rules are going to be saviour of the the Industry or if in fact they are the most practical solution.What I do accept is the need for breeding rules.
The biggest area of concern I have is the 8 years and over, only because I think it is subjective and not evidence based.
Personally I am treating the rules as a starting point. I would like to think in time as the facts/various circumstances arise the rules will be calibrated. Could they be modified to what some may view as worse , well yes , they may also be improved upon to better suit the participants - we simple don't know at this point. What I do know is being compliant and not offering up practical feed back pushing back hard, are as equally divisive to settling on long term guidelines.
Anthony, whilst I can understand your frustration in not having your bitch's mating approved, I have to say I have never found the staff at GRNSW anything other than co-operative and very responsive.
Like all business's when things go wrong the front line staff are the ones literally "thrown under the bus" to deal with the end users. I think we should all bear this in mind and try to work with the team at GRNSW on the premise we are on the same side.I doubt many of us would have enjoyed undertaking their roles over the past 8 months.
I realise this won't solve your dilemma Anthony nor appease your view .Yes I agree there have been some "dumb" things said and uninspiring decisions taken by the New Administrators, but fighting breeding regulations is not smart in my view. Many will differ and so be it.
Hi Nicholas, you make a number of reasonable points.
Just to reiterate, this is NOT "about me". I have used our situation as an example of "big brother" stepping in (on?), and in my opinion (as was also stated by Jack) we are facing a "Nanny state" type of scenario / treatment.
I have stated on here and elsewhere that we can ALL benefit from a REDUCTION in breeding; but even James in his answers states that it should be more about the POST-RACING CARE and WELFARE of the dogs.
As I previously indicated, the person I spoke with at GrNSW listened to my / our concerns as I raised them; I can only presume at this point that they are willing to try to see if something can be done (we have not - yet - been "refused" the right to breed). From our side, we are doing all we can to progress things at double-speed. Hopefully once we can show our genuine efforts at compliance, "common sense" will prevail. Rather than a blanket "you're out" approach.
It is the "principle" I am "fighting for". Larry seems to think it is a vendetta; NOT SO. And for the record, the 2 bitches of ours Larry referred to have NOTHING to do with this (we deliberately let Cool and Fancy 'miss' last month; and haven't yet made a decision on Wheely Happy). However, I chose to respond to what I considered to be his (and Dan's) little 'digs' when I was merely pointing out some home truths about their supposed 'hero', who's record is - as they say - "there for all to see and judge for themselves". I am more than happy to put my credibility, honesty and integrity up for comparison, that's for sure!
I maintain my primary position on the subject of breeding; and that is simply this: While G.A. continues to accept and "register" bitches into their Stud book, the ONLY reason they should ever be PREVENTED or RESTRICTED from breeding is on the ADVICE OF AN INDEPENDENT VET (ie, if she is not in good, sound general or reproductive health).
I believe we should NOT pander to the over-zealous idiots that are trying to RESTRICT and OVER-GOVERN our industry. As has been stated on this and other subjects, PUNISH THE GUITY, NOT the innocent.
In the long run, the basic principles of supply and demand, and the accompanying commercial realities, will self-govern most industries, including ours.
We are tending to "act" like "we" have all done something wrong; for goodness sake, we STILL don't know the true figures of exactly what numbers are 'unaccounted' for (all presumed euthanized by GA, so it seems). How about we ensure the Authorities "hasten slowly", and don't continue to react on impulse and flawed premises.
If people can't understand or accept that is where I am coming from, well there's no hope for them I am afraid. I am not saying they have to "accept my position", BUT don't try and make out that this is about anything other than what I consider to be the "greater good", and what I consider our RIGHTS.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 10 Nov 2015 03:40
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Good post Anth and with out really knowing you im guessing the old ways of doing things never sat that well with you either.I see a lot of this as a generational change in the industry as well which if embraced will get us a more secure sport moving forward.Some of the older generations take on dogs were just past there use by date it was always going to come to a head and it did.This sport needs a modern facelift it needs regulation(rearing and breaking)needs better ways to rehome ex racers and its a big challenge.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 10 Nov 2015 03:54
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Why not leave the age limit for breeding age at 8 years of age and just extend the 3 litter rule to 4 litters, with all the same prerequisites to go to a 5th litter?
Surely, no one would be stupid enough to go a 5th litter if the bitch didn't produce the required winners.
e.g. Bitch retires at say 3.5 to 4 years old, assuming she came on at 4 years of age, one litter per year brings her to 8 years old.
The costs of breeding and rearing a litter are increasing therefore the market forces and the costs involved in production should limit the litter numbers in any case
Anthony Jeffress Australia (Verified User) Posts 3669 Dogs 54 / Races 10 10 Nov 2015 04:43
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
The costs of breeding and rearing a litter are increasing therefore the market forces and the costs involved in production should limit the litter numbers in any case
That's the part / point I agree with you on, Sandro. Why would anyone CHOOSE to do it? Ok, there may be 1 or 2 that "want to breed regardless", but in the overall scheme of things, are those (hypothetical) dozen or so dog making that much of a difference?
Whereas as James points out, how many HUNDREDS of dogs are ruined by poor rearing, training, or bad animal husbandry?
There was a litter bred up here a few years ago, for want of a better word the breeding was pretty obscure. Sire was home-bred, didn't run much if any better than 30.7 at Albion Park, and overall winning strikerate wasn't flash. The mother was a very handy race type, and obviously owned by the same connections.
Would you, I or "most people" have bred them together? Not a chance in hell! But guess what? I called not one but TWO of them winning at a meeting recently.
Oh, for good measure, the family has REPEAT MATED the pair, too!
Regarding the suggestion on the 8yo 'cap', again, respectfully, I must disagree. As myself and others have pointed out in the past, SOME bitches aren't in good enough 'nick' after 1 or 2 litters to go ahead and be bred again (yet there is NOTHING stopping an 'irresponsible' breeder breeding them now, as the 'new' rules stand). Those broods may only be 4 - 5 - 6 years old.
Whereas I have a 6yo bitch with us, that's had 4 (yes FOUR, God forbid ... according to the Authorities) litters. And guess what, she is in MAGNIFICENT health, and - permission pending - we WILL be wanting a 5th(and final) litter. I am also waiting on 2 x 7yo bitches to come in season (yes, I know ... hopefully I will have Pink Cards in place by then! lol) ... But what if they hit 8yo before coming on again? Both are also in excellent general health, too.
Fancy my chances under the current "rules"?
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 10 Nov 2015 05:06
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I think that some rules need to be in place.
I think that the 8 year old bitch scenario is a fair thing.
Some bitches are in great condition at 8 yo, some are way past by their use by date, regardless of the number of litters.
Therefore, I support that a vet certificate etc should be obtained for bitches above 8 years of age
It stops greedy breeders who have had good success in previous litters going to the well one more time without checking with their vet.
I see it as a decent protection mechanism and one the authorities should enforce.
I have seen bitches have pups at 9 yo that should never have had a litter because they were going onto being frail themselves. The resultant pups have come out small and in some cases, deformed or dead.
The bitch at that age is also more susceptible to failure to birth naturally and may need a cesarian.
All things that are unnecessary if a vet monitors the health of an aging bitch.
A vet certificate puts the responsibility back onto the Vet to say yay or nay.
I am just not fussed on the 3 litter limit.
As mentioned, if a bitch starts breeding at 4 she can have 4 litters up to 8 years of age
That's enough to see if she is worth going on with it, by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 10 Nov 2015 05:14
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I don't mind the 18 months in between first and second litter gives you time to assess her producing qualities.What id like too see is breeding incentives to known producers and superior rearing and educators.If your going to whack bad breeders or potential ones wheres the carrot for the industry achievers.Before someone says wheeler doesn't need any more money id be whacking him at the other end for supposedly rehoming all his dogs.He can afford it.
Anthony Jeffress Australia (Verified User) Posts 3669 Dogs 54 / Races 10 10 Nov 2015 05:17
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
I think that some rules need to be in place.
I think that the 8 year old bitch scenario is a fair thing.
Some bitches are in great condition at 8 yo, some are way past by their use by date, regardless of the number of litters.
Therefore, I support that a vet certificate etc should be obtained for bitches above 8 years of age
It stops greedy breeders who have had good success in previous litters going to the well one more time without checking with their vet.
I see it as a decent protection mechanism and one the authorities should enforce.
I have seen bitches have pups at 9 yo that should never have had a litter because they were going onto being frail themselves. The resultant pups have come out small and in some cases, deformed. The bitch at that age is more susceptible to failure to birth naturally and may need a cesarian.
All things that are unnecessary if a vet monitors the health of an aging bitch.
A vet certificate puts the responsibility back onto the Vet to say yay or nay.
I am just not fussed on the 3 litter limit.
As mentioned, if a bitch starts breeding at 4 she can have 4 litters up to 8 years of age
That's enough to see if she is worth going on with it, by any stretch of the imagination.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
I agree entirely that a Vet certificate should be obtained for 8yo+ broods (irrespective of litters beforehand).
I merely DISAGREE that we should need to seek the "permission" of some faceless bureaucracy / pencil pusher / breeding Committee (or whatever / whoever) to make a decision!
And I disagree entirely with the removal of so-called "Breeding Schemes". As Jack (and others) have rightly pointed out, have the Thoroughbred and/or standardbred "Schemes" been axed? Do they not have "wastage"? ("their" buzzword by the way; not mine!)
The sooner people wise up to the fact that most of this new "guff" is more a PUNISHMENT than an effective "fix" for anything, the better we'll be. And maybe then, others might join me in objecting to the unnecessary "over-regulation" being FORCED on us ... WITHOUT INDUSTRY CONSULTATION (especially as we haven't even agreed or accepted what the real 'problem' is!)
Remind me again, what have the GBOTA's done about this? Every time I try to ask, my questions seem to get the axe!
Larry Valenti Australia (Verified User) Posts 2143 Dogs 3 / Races 0 10 Nov 2015 05:22
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So Anthony you believe the entire licensed community can make a decision correctly if given that opportunity .
Robert Morris Australia (Verified User) Posts 695 Dogs 0 / Races 0 10 Nov 2015 05:27
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
It stops greedy breeders who have had good success in previous litters going to the well one more time without checking with their vet.
I thought the problem the industry is trying to solve was wastage. If the brood has had good success then really we should be encouraging more litters from it so that the % of pups making the track increase.
These rules could mean good proven producing broods will be on the sidelines whilst unproven broods are used with to get their 3 litters.
Personally I think there should be no restrictions on broods & the focus should be on increasing the costs of registering a litter to reduce the number of pups bred.
Anthony Jeffress Australia (Verified User) Posts 3669 Dogs 54 / Races 10 10 Nov 2015 05:31
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Larry Valenti wrote:
So Anthony you believe the entire licensed community can make a decision correctly if given that opportunity .
Answer me this, Larry:
What's a "poorly bred greyhound"?
Explain for me the guaranteed "formula" for breeding success?
If there's 10,000 dogs bred per year, what is an effective "re-homing" target?
On average, what percentage of greyhounds die from natural causes in the first year? And then between 2 years? (and so on) . Importantly, how many have lived happy lives until 7 - 8 - 9 - 10+ years?
How many have been euthanized as a result of racing? Or training accidents?
How many greyhounds CURRENTLY are re-homed throughout Australia? And how many retired greyhounds are currently still (retired) with an owner/s or trainer/s?
How many greyhounds have been exported to overseas destinations? (let's say, for each of the past 3 years?) And how many of these were done WITHOUT "Passports" or formal "approval" from an Authority?
Larry Valenti Australia (Verified User) Posts 2143 Dogs 3 / Races 0 10 Nov 2015 05:39
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If TPTB overhaull the rules from top to bottom , inside and out . They will still be making rule changes in a hundred years . The first step is to acknowledge change is needed . Some country has to lead the world and with the betting product in front of everyone on sky here in Australia why shouldnt it be Australia ?
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 10 Nov 2015 05:40
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Robert Morris wrote:
Sandro Bechini wrote:
It stops greedy breeders who have had good success in previous litters going to the well one more time without checking with their vet.
I thought the problem the industry is trying to solve was wastage. If the brood has had good success then really we should be encouraging more litters from it so that the % of pups making the track increase.
These rules could mean good proven producing broods will be on the sidelines whilst unproven broods are used with to get their 3 litters.
Personally I think there should be no restrictions on broods & the focus should be on increasing the costs of registering a litter to reduce the number of pups bred.
Robert
If she has good success then there should be no problem.
However, with the rule currently in place, if 60% of the bitch's named pups win at Broken Hill she passes, if 50% of the bitch's named pups win at Wentworth Park, she fails
This is an area that they need to look at.
I think that a vet certificate for a bitch above 8 years of age is a small price to pay for an assurance to show the public we aren't breeding for greed.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 10 Nov 2015 05:58
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Anthony Jeffress wrote:
I merely DISAGREE that we should need to seek the "permission" of some faceless bureaucracy / pencil pusher / breeding Committee (or whatever / whoever) to make a decision!
Anthony
You're just going to have live with it because they aren't going away.
Grant Thomas Australia (Verified User) Posts 11447 Dogs 64 / Races 20 10 Nov 2015 06:07
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james saunders wrote:
I don't mind the 18 months in between first and second litter gives you time to assess her producing qualities.What id like too see is breeding incentives to known producers and superior rearing and educators.If your going to whack bad breeders or potential ones wheres the carrot for the industry achievers.Before someone says wheeler doesn't need any more money id be whacking him at the other end for supposedly rehoming all his dogs.He can afford it.
IF I'm adding up right...a 12 mth. bitch has say 1st litter at 4yrs...next would be at 6yrs because at 5yrs it's too early per the 18 mth. rule...next at 7yrs next at 8yrs...= 26 pups(6.5 ave)...would that sustain racing numbers bringing in ALL the other criteria the bitch/s has to achieve...???
Doug Taylor Australia (Verified User) Posts 1896 Dogs 22 / Races 1 10 Nov 2015 08:19
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Robert Morris wrote:
Sandro Bechini wrote:
It stops greedy breeders who have had good success in previous litters going to the well one more time without checking with their vet.
I thought the problem the industry is trying to solve was wastage. If the brood has had good success then really we should be encouraging more litters from it so that the % of pups making the track increase.
These rules could mean good proven producing broods will be on the sidelines whilst unproven broods are used with to get their 3 litters.
Personally I think there should be no restrictions on broods & the focus should be on increasing the costs of registering a litter to reduce the number of pups bred.
Robert
If she has good success then there should be no problem.
However, with the rule currently in place, if 60% of the bitch's named pups win at Broken Hill she passes, if 50% of the bitch's named pups win at Wentworth Park, she fails
This is an area that they need to look at.
I think that a vet certificate for a bitch above 8 years of age is a small price to pay for an assurance to show the public we aren't breeding for greed.
The only real way to try and make this a fairer method is to measure prizemoney per named pup rather than win percentage although even that can be skewed by one outstanding individual. You would think that across the board it's on average a fairer way to do it than the current win method only?
If (hypothetically) Chloe Allen had 8 pups including Fernando Bale, two country grade TAB winners that won $5k each and no other winners is she be deemed a 'successful' brood?
Marie Barton-Hanson United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 22 Dogs 0 / Races 0 10 Nov 2015 18:40
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james saunders wrote:
Is there any truth to the rumour theres going to be further breeding restrictions with the bitch having to have earned a minimum prizemoney level set by greyhounds Australasia.
Once again it should not be up to any authority to say you can,t do this all that it is your bitch and if she is healthy and not to young or old its only the owners business
Trevor John Rhodes Australia (Verified User) Posts 81 Dogs 0 / Races 11 10 Nov 2015 20:16
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They could speed up the "generational change" and restrict the age of the breeder to say between 25 and 35, that will take care of the old thinking amongst breeders.
James Saunders Australia (Verified User) Posts 4644 Dogs 3 / Races 3 10 Nov 2015 20:47
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There would be no one left Trevor everyone seems to be over 50,but my point wasn't to get rid of the older participants but there mindset needs to get in step with modern Australia.These animals are a commodity and usually a large investment in time and money but ultimately there just a dog who is happy doing what ever we ask of them lets respect them more and cut down as much as possible on putting them down .Because if we cant we wont have a sport.
Andrew Plasier Australia (Verified User) Posts 1279 Dogs 0 / Races 16 10 Nov 2015 23:59
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Marie Barton-Hanson wrote:
Once again it should not be up to any authority to say you can,t do this all that it is your bitch and if she is healthy and not to young or old its only the owners business
that's the thing marie,it is up to the authority! for too long there were no rules,& that's how u end up with too many pups being pts cause their too slow,it mite be ur bitch but ur racing under the states guidelines,there has to be regulations.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 11 Nov 2015 00:40
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Doug Chloe Allen in the 1st litter averaged just over 3000 a pup with 1 pup winning around 18k..... her 2nd litter averaged 12k per pup with 2 winning above 15k each ...these are from pups whelped off hand there were around 15 pups for the 1st 2 litters... On another note when do you class a bitch as successful No there are no rules yet the Clowns Leading this Parade think there are Bring On The Clowns .....George Jones lyrics Come all you merry makers You wine drinkers and heart breakers Pass me the bottle one more round Come all of you love makers All you cheaters and lie makers Fill me with happiness and bring on the clowns.
There's a place around the corner and I can't wait to go I can't stay away from there when I'm feeling low Running from my problems, cheating on my wife Acting like a hobo, running out on life. Laughin loud, telling jokes, drinking to much wine Gathered 'round the table we're all one of a kind
I thought that I was happy till I saw you walkin' in And through the loud and noisy crowd you reach out your hand I know I shouldn't be here, I really don't belong I'm proud that you still love me and you wanna take me home.
Goodbye you merry makers You wine drinkers and heart breakers I'll be gone when the bottle passes 'round Goodbye you love makers All you cheaters and lie makers You'll never miss me when you bring on the clowns.
'Cause I'll be with my baby when you bring on the clowns
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
